INTERVIEW - Eva Illouz: "Instead of fighting together for peace, the progressive left has chosen the path of hatred. This is a tragedy."

Ms. Illouz, after October 7, you were disappointed by many left-wing intellectuals who were reluctant to condemn the Hamas massacre. You publicly settled accounts with them and spoke of betrayal. How do you view this today?

October 7 marked a rift within the left. Today, there are two lefts. One has made anti-Zionism and the war in Gaza the main focus of its identity and struggle. It lives in a bizarre, permanent obsession with Israel. There is another left, to which I belong, for which Israel is a flawed country, but certainly no worse than many others.

How do you define your left?

In my left, one can simultaneously fight the occupation of Palestinian territories and anti-Semitism. The left I believe in wants to preserve Israel's right to exist, the right to self-defense in the event of an attack, the right to combat anti-Semitism, and the Palestinians' right to self-determination. The other left, in my opinion, is no longer a left. It is something else, more like a religious and irrational sect.

At the Glastonbury Festival a few days ago, the crowd chanted "Death, death, death to the IDF," encouraged by singer Bob Vylan. Pro-Palestinian demonstrations are usually about hatred of Israel. Is the brief war with Iran fueling hostility toward Jews?

It's to be assumed. The alliance between the United States and Israel is a red rag to the anti-colonial left. As the Iranian mullahs would say: the alliance of the Great and the Lesser Satan. Since the Hamas massacre, Israel has been the criminal entity, and the Jews must pay the price for their association with Israel. Just as Jews were a priori guilty in the past and had to bear an ontological guilt, Israel is now also a priori guilty and thus illegitimate.

US Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, a Democrat, called Netanyahu a "war criminal" for attacking Iran and the Israeli government a "rogue genocidal regime." She didn't say a word about the dictatorial regime in Tehran. How widespread is such an attitude?

The anti-colonial left views the Iranian regime of Ayatollah Khomeini as a reaction to the American imperialism that preceded it. The Shah, against whom the Islamist coup was directed, is perceived as a mere puppet of the Americans. Many people think: If you are the enemy of my enemy, you are my friend. But the enemy of your enemy can also remain your enemy. And they can even become an even worse enemy.

The terrorist state is glorified?

The war in Gaza has become a metaphor for the evil in the world. If Iran is perceived as supporting the Palestinians, it is almost irrelevant what the nature of the Iranian regime is. Iran executed 900 people in 2024 alone for innocuous offenses like drug use. This regime oppresses women like few others. In a way, the postcolonial left's reaction to Iran only further highlights its imprisonment in a blindness that history will remember.

How did this delusion come about?

The Iranian regime emerged from a mixture of religious doctrine and Marxist revolutionary spirit. This enabled it to establish a connection with the global left. For forty years, Iran has been a master at waging a covert ideological war. It has succeeded in influencing part of the global public through the communist and anti-imperialist left. This is the result of a successful, aggressive propaganda campaign that portrays Israel as the sole source of evil in the world.

The Universities of Geneva and Lausanne have ended their partnership programs with the Hebrew University of Jerusalem due to the war in Gaza. You taught in Jerusalem for many years. Did you know about this?

Have these two universities also stopped collaborating with Russian or Chinese researchers? Probably not. How strange.

You sound perplexed.

There is a long tradition of boycotting Jews, so why not continue this tradition against one of the smallest minorities in the world?

As an Israeli, do you have similar experiences in your research environment?

At the École des hautes études, where I teach, I've sensed hostility. People who believe they possess both empirical and moral truth feel entitled to this. They're especially fond of doing this toward those who are also left-wing but who question leftists like them. Many people, however, also support me, but they don't say so publicly. There's a fear of speaking out in academia. That's disturbing. I'll soon be publishing two books on the subject. Antisemitism, and how persistent it is, is fascinating to sociologists.

The Gaza war has so far claimed many Palestinian civilian casualties. Hamas still holds 56 Israeli hostages. Even European countries are less reserved in their criticism of Israel. Has a turning point been reached where Israel will be held more accountable?

This war must be condemned in the strongest possible terms. I would even go further: It is a criminal war, the extent of the destruction is unforgivable. When Netanyahu broke the ceasefire in March, one could say that at least half of Hamas had been wiped out. Israel had secured a good position: Syria was stable, Hezbollah was weakened, and so was Hamas. So what exactly could it achieve? You can't destroy Hamas without annihilating its entire population. Some Israeli politicians make no secret of their desire to carry out ethnic cleansing.

Would you speak of genocide?

Absolutely not. This term is grossly misused. People pretend there are no other horrific crimes, war crimes, or ethnic cleansing in the world. In the Democratic Republic of Congo, millions of people are being displaced and countless others are being killed. Yet no one seems to care. Europeans are only concerned with Jewish wars and crimes. There is a double racism here: the terrible suffering of Africans is ignored, and the cruelty of Israeli Jews is exaggerated.

This does not change the suffering of the Palestinian civilian population.

No. However, one should not forget: Hamas is a genocidal group; it started this war. It wants to wipe the State of Israel and its seven million Jews off the map. Ultimately, Israelis and Jews wage wars the same way the rest of the world does: as brutal, cruel people.

There's a strong black-and-white mentality in this conflict. Why is it so difficult to condemn Hamas, which wants to destroy Israel, while simultaneously condemning what Israel is doing in Gaza?

Many Israelis do both. They condemn the disproportionate death toll in Gaza, but also stand up for Israel. This has led to a split on the left that is now far deeper than the one between social democracy and communism. Instead of fighting together for peace, the progressive left has chosen the path of hatred and discredited itself. This is a tragedy.

Has the world forgotten the remaining Israeli hostages in the Gaza Strip?

The world? That's Netanyahu's responsibility. But we should stop looking for someone to blame and simply do everything we can to create peace. Stop the war, stop the violence, think about the day after, engage in diplomacy, bring back the hostages, and neutralize Hamas by cutting off its financial sources, like Qatar.

Is that realistic?

Qatar and Iran are major donors to Hamas. Now that Iran's nuclear arsenal has been at least partially destroyed, we should exert enormous pressure on Qatar. Hamas's resources must be completely drained. They surrendered their people without batting an eyelid.

On the other hand, a generation is growing up in Gaza that sees Israel as an enemy that brings destruction, suffering, and death. Hamas can easily win over such people, full of hatred and feelings of revenge, to its terror. Is this something to be feared?

The risk exists. Therefore, first, a Marshall Plan should be established to help the Palestinians rebuild their society, materially, culturally, and morally. Second, something resembling a denazification process should be carried out to eradicate the anti-Semitism that has gripped this society. Monitoring is needed for two or three decades to ensure that no new tunnels are built, no new military arsenal is accumulated, and no anti-Semitism is instilled in children. By improving their living conditions, the Palestinians will be deterred from attacking and terrorizing Israel.

Due to the fierce military conflict with Iran, Israelis have just spent another two weeks in air raid shelters. How exhausted is Israeli society?

The attacks of October 7, as well as those from Gaza, Lebanon, the West Bank, and Iran, have undermined Israel's internal stability and triggered an exodus. Netanyahu and his right-wing religious coalition government are contributing to this.

With what consequences?

Many Israeli citizens are leaving the country. This is primarily a reaction to Netanyahu's judicial coup, his attempt to eliminate the independence of the judiciary even before the war. Secular Israelis are also losing their willingness to finance the non-working ultra-Orthodox Jews who don't even serve in the military. Now that there is a war zone with multiple theaters and fronts, it becomes even more plausible for many, especially young, qualified, and educated Israelis, to build a new life elsewhere. In 2024, 80,000 Israelis emigrated, almost twice as many as in 2023.

You also left Israel. Your three sons are studying abroad. Do you still have family or friends in Israel?

I haven't left Israel in any way. I'm currently in Paris, perhaps I'll go back to Tel Aviv tomorrow. I have close friends there. Everyone in Israel is hoping the situation might change now. Iran has built a noose, a ring of fire, around Israel. The threat came from all sides. Now the Israelis can breathe a little easier. They find themselves in a strange moment between utter despair and incredible hope.

Eva Illouz is a sociologist and teaches at the École des hautes études in Paris. Her most recent book, "Explosive Moderne," is published by Suhrkamp Verlag.