David Rieff: “Wokism is a war against great European culture”

Political analyst, war correspondent, and cultural critic David Rieff (Boston, 1952) doesn't mind disturbing, much less questioning, intellectual fashions. In his latest book, Desire and Fate: Woke, the Decline of Culture, and the Victory of Kitsch (Debate), he discusses "moralistic orthodoxy" and its "flattening" effect on contemporary society. A collection of essays that interrogate woke ideology and its "simplistic" understanding of high culture. "If the humanities were a breakfast cereal company, they might translate woke as 'Tastes good' and 'It's good for you,'" he sarcastically describes in one of his reflections.

Son of novelist Susan Sontag and sociologist Philip Rieff, the journalist is heir to a family tradition steeped in words. This Sunday he will be in Segovia to participate in the Hay Festival. For now, on the other side of the screen, Rieff is enthusiastic. He says he will soon return to Kyiv, the city where he has primarily resided since 2022, to begin his next project. "My next project will be about the war in Ukraine. I'm going back to my roots."

Why do you claim that Wokism poses such a significant threat to culture?

I think woke culture is a very specific cultural danger. It's a war against great European culture. If it wins, the result wouldn't be a million dead, but we're going to lose that great European culture in the name of justice and the emancipation of marginalized groups. Wokeism dictates that we have to give a voice, so to speak, to the marginalized. For example, saying we shouldn't read Cervantes anymore, that it's better to read a writer from Equatorial Guinea because Cervantes doesn't represent migrant groups, or that Taylor Swift should win instead of Mozart. It's not the war in Sudan, but I think woke culture and its different versions present an existential challenge to the fate of classical culture; it's a mortal danger.

We are entering a more authoritarian world, even in democracies.”

You've been very critical of the role of universities in perpetuating woke culture. What consequences might this have for knowledge production?

Radical subjectivity dominates universities. There's a presentism in which there's no interesting past, except for the victimizing past. For me, this is a fatal blow to culture. An example: the English poet T.S. Eliot had anti-Semitic views, so you shouldn't read him because his poems aren't important. The fact that he's not a "worthy person" is more important than the work. For me, culture is a respectful dialogue between the present and the past. Now everything must submit to the present, to our own ideas. I can't imagine that in two centuries, if humanity survives at all, people will think we've had ridiculous, harmful, or dangerous values ​​and ideas.

Is it buried, as you suggest in the book, under the dichotomy of the victim and the oppressor?

It's about erasing everything that doesn't suit us and fits our priorities, our collective worldview, and our hopes. For me, wokeness has religious aspects because it offers you the chance to save your moral life. That's why I think it can't tolerate opposition. It's like Catholicism in Europe before the 19th century. You had to conform, or there would be consequences.

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In your book, you argue that wokeism has replaced traditional political criticism. Has the historical connection between politics and the working classes been eroded?

In France, for example, left-wing parties don't represent the working class. The National Front does. The French left and the socialists represent the "right-thinking" bourgeoisie. I think the same situation could be true in Spain. In England, France, and Germany, left-wing parties claim to speak on behalf of the working class, but their values ​​are the values ​​of a certain bourgeoisie. In cultural terms, for example, inclusive language in Argentina emerged from the Peronist left, and they aren't as closely linked to the working class. Milei's victory demonstrated this, because he won the majority of the votes from those classes. For them, saying "mis hijxs" instead of hijos y hijas doesn't have much significance.

Do we still have full democracies if representation has been lost?

I think we're entering a more authoritarian world, even in the democracies of Europe and North America. I think the ideas of authoritarian capitalism are gaining ground, that is, those of a Donald Trump in the United States or a Xi Jinping in China. Elections are now taking place in almost every country, but we've learned that democracy is much more than elections. I see the de-democratization of our societies and that we are not up to our challenges. It's a time of great fear; young people are absolutely afraid of the future because of climate change. And we're also seeing the return, so to speak, of war as a central phenomenon in our lives.

You mention that woke ideology is intolerant of everything except capitalism and class inequalities...

A bank can accept inclusive language without changing the essence of its work. The woke only imagines itself as Marxist. There's no contradiction between woke and capitalism, as there was in the case of communism or radical socialism. Socialism also failed—I'm not talking about social democratic parties, but communism in its versions like Cuba, the Soviet Union, or China. Either they're almost all capitalist or they're disasters. In a world where there's only capitalism, challenging it is very difficult.

Your analysis of political and cultural trends indicated the possibility of Donald Trump becoming president, even before his election...

No one knows how to confront this, and that's why I believe populisms, both left and right, have triumphed in our society. Trump's victory in the United States is as if Santiago Abascal had won control of the Popular Party. In France, I believe the hard right or the hard left will win the elections. I don't see another Macron. These forces may not have answers, but at least they present solutions. These solutions may be absolutely false and disastrous, but at least they acknowledge that there is a crisis. Donald Trump said he was going to rebuild the United States of the 1950s. It's impossible.