Mujica: 'If you don't have a cause, society will frame you, and you will spend your life paying bills'

José "Pepe" Mujica died this Tuesday (13/5) at the age of 89.

In this interview, conducted in December 2024, he appears through a door, with his back hunched and his steps slow, but with the desire intact to talk about his passions: life, the land, politics...

He would have turned 90 on the 20th.

In the small room, there is a dim light and bookshelves that rise from the ceramic floor to the zinc ceiling, overflowing with books and memories of an intense journey.

The man who in the 1960s joined the Tupamaro guerrillas, who was later arrested and tortured, who as president of Uruguay from 2010 to 2015 surprised the world with his anti-consumer speeches and austere life, and who is a survivor of esophageal cancer, is sitting in an armchair.

"Everything happened to me," Mujica reflects in an interview with BBC News Mundo, the BBC's Spanish-language news service.

"I have to shout: thank you to life."

Mujica says that having the presence of his wife, former senator Lucía Topolansky, whom he met when she was a guerrilla fighter in 1971, is a "prize" at his age.

And he also talks about the "prize" that the election of his political heir, Yamandú Orsi, as president of Uruguay on November 24, after a large vote by his political group, the Popular Participation Movement (MPP), represented for him.

BBC News Mundo spoke to Mujica at his farm in rural Montevideo, where the scent of jasmine hangs in the air, boxes of corn and pumpkins are piled high, roosters crow and dogs bark.

BBC News Mundo - How are you feeling?

José Mujica - A little tired. I'm coming out of a treatment that I don't know when will end.

I had cancer treatment that they said was very effective, that it had eliminated (the cancer), but I was left with a hole that needed to be filled.

And, as I am old, almost reaching 90 years old, cell reproduction is very slow.

That's why I can't eat: I eat very little by mouth, soft foods. And I feed myself with an injection through a tube in the morning and another in the afternoon. We'll see when this ends. But I'm better than before.

BBC News Mundo - A few days ago, you said that you are "struggling with death". How difficult is this struggle for someone like you, who has already been through almost everything in life?

Mujica - It is known that death is inevitable. And perhaps it is like the salt of life.

Naturally, the chances of dying multiply as the years go by. And if we add disease on top of that...

She is a lady we don't like, and we don't want her, but she will inevitably arrive at some point. Therefore, we have to resign ourselves to it.

All living beings are made to fight for life: from a weed, a frog and even us. It turns out that this serves to give flavor to life, because, as old Aristotle said: everything that nature does is done well.

I would have to be a fanatical believer. Because many times death was hovering over the bed where I was. And I managed to get there until today.

And despite everything, I spent years in prison, everything happened to me, and then I became president.

So, I have to shout: thank you to life.

But you try to live a little longer, don't you? And well, that's what I'm doing.

BBC News Mundo - Would you say that this is the most difficult time you have ever been through?

Mujica - It's likely that I have lived through more difficult times, but I wasn't aware of it.

I was shot once in a bowling alley, but it was near the Military Hospital. They took me there quickly. And the surgeon on duty was a fellow surgeon. Can you believe it?

They gave me whatever blood they had on hand, because I had lost a lot of blood. And in the end, I was saved.

BBC News Mundo - You lost your spleen there...

Mujica - I lost my spleen. I think it must have been the most dramatic moment I've ever experienced, but I wasn't aware of it.

I know they threw me into something, and I was making barbaric speeches to them: "Don't let me die, I'm a social fighter." It doesn't make any sense. I was in shock.

BBC News Mundo - What meaning have you found in life?

Mujica - It is the notable difference between it and other forms of life. Human life, due to our intellectual development, allows us in part to choose a cause to live: to give meaning to life.

That's the reward of having a conscience. But we don't necessarily exercise it. Sometimes we do — sometimes we don't.

What does it mean to give meaning to life? It is having one main thing that fills the chapters and concerns of our existence.

In my case, it is the dream of fighting for a slightly better world. It is a sociopolitical concern.

But there is also the passion of scientists, who spend 20 years with a molecule. Or those who cultivate an art.

Having something central as a goal in our life: many people do this, but not everyone does.

What's the problem? If you don't define a goal, a cause, the market society will pigeonhole you and you will spend your whole life paying bills.

In other words, you are functional to the mechanics of the market, and you end up confusing "being" with "having".

Now, if you have a cause, that is secondary, because you live for the cause.

BBC News Mundo - You have been preaching against consumption for years. Do you think it is a lost battle?

Mujica - Yes, for now it is an intellectual seeding.

Most of our societies are subject to self-exploitation, because what they earn tends not to reach them, because everything is done in such a way that it never reaches them.

And you have to get more, and work harder and harder, because you spend more and more. And what do you pay with? With the time of your life, you spend to produce value so you can pay.

When am I free? When I escape the law of necessity.

If necessity forces me to spend time to obtain financial means with which I have to pay for the consumption I have, I am not free.

I am free when I dedicate time in my life to what I like and what I want. Yes, because it is mine. That is what people have less time for these days.

It is often said: "I don't want my child to lack anything." Yes, but idiot, you are missed, because you never have time for your child.

BBC News Mundo - Where does the solution lie?

Mujica - For sobriety in the way of living.

BBC News Mundo - Is it something individual, not a system change?

Mujica - It cannot be imposed. That's why I say that the only thing I do is sow.

But there is also a global reason.

If the entire underdeveloped world starts to consume, it doesn't even have to be like the Yankees, just like the Europeans, the planet won't be able to resist.

We need three planets. It's not me saying this - there's no way we can live in a society with so much waste.

We can live peacefully, but if 8 billion people are going to take a bath in a jacuzzi, we need an Amazon. Do you realize? It's not possible.

Humanity is wasting an absurd amount of things, and this waste ends up turning against our species. It's a vicious cycle.

So, sobriety and prudence are advantageous for several reasons.

But I know that I am in a time when people will not understand me, because the culture of our time is a formidable achievement of capitalism.

A subliminal culture has been created in which we all have to be compulsive buyers.

All the economists in the world are always desperate for the economy to grow. This is imposed, everything I say is against it.

BBC News Mundo - Do you think there will be a breaking point?

Mujica - We will have to pay for what we are doing.

I won't be alive, but there's nothing you can do above Earth; nature is taking its toll on us. And it's starting to take its toll on us.

Climate change is not insignificant. This will probably be the hottest year for us, for little Uruguay.

BBC News Mundo - Does nature continue to surprise you?

Mujica - Nature leaves us open-mouthed when we observe it. I'm ecstatic, to be honest.

There are people in the countryside who say: 'How sad, how lonely'.

You need eyes to see.

All the life forms fighting, coming and going, it's a scary thing. From the little worms and earthworms to the birds and everything that's going on around.

BBC News Mundo - Since when have you had this admiration for nature?

Mujica - Maybe always, because I was raised on a farm, and I learned to love it and the land.

Today I'm screwed, but every day, if I can, I ride the tractor a little, because I find myself.

Furthermore, when I was in prison, I spent almost seven years without books, in a room smaller than this one. They transferred me from barracks to barracks. So I ended up contracting the vice of misanthropy, of talking to myself.

This was like self-defense, in the conditions I was in, so as not to lose my mind. But it stayed with me. It became a habit.

So I'm doing things, constantly thinking and mulling things over in my head. Do you see? It's changed the way I am.

I can't escape what I've been through either. How do I get out of this now?

BBC News Mundo - Are you still reading?

Mujica - Yes, I keep reading and I read about everything. Look... (pointing to the book Nexus: A Brief History of Information Networks, from the Stone Age to Artificial Intelligence , by Israeli historian Yuval Noah Harari).

BBC News Mundo - Harari. You spoke to him once, didn't you?

Mujica - Yes, I did. It shook me.

BBC News World - Why?

Mujica - I remember him telling me: "I'm afraid that humanity won't have time to clean up the mess it made."

As an intellectual concern, it's a ticking time bomb. I remember he ended the conversation with that.

BBC News Mundo - And what do you think?

Mujica - I have a similar feeling to him, and I hope I'm wrong.

BBC News Mundo - Do you not believe in the human being's ability to adapt?

Mujica - Yes, I believe in the capacity, but the fact is that it is necessary to adapt to the environment.

The fear is that humanity is heading towards a kind of ecological Holocaust. Not because it doesn't know; it has known for over 30 years what is happening, and it knows what needs to be done.

Scientists said this in Kyoto about 32 years ago, and they were not wrong: adverse phenomena will be more frequent, deeper and greater.

That's what's happening.

Suddenly there is a major drought... or suddenly 400 millimeters of rain falls in a short space of time.

And they also said what needed to be done. So it's not a lack of awareness. It wasn't the science that failed, it was the politics that failed, that didn't take into account what the science was indicating.

What's going to happen? I don't know. But when you have a leader like (Donald) Trump, who denies the evidence, or like (Javier) Milei and so on, you say: help!

BBC News Mundo - Are you worried about Trump's re-election and the phenomenon of radical right movements around the world?

Mujica - Yes, of course. And especially this negativity.

A false narrative against the State has been generated here, because it is not the State that is failing. The State is like a toolbox, it has no conscience. It is the human beings who administer the State who are failing.

It is we who do not have the culture and soul necessary to conduct it well.

But it's nice to say: "Oh no, the State is no good". We are the ones who are no good at administering it!

BBC News Mundo - How should the left face these phenomena?

Mujica - I would have to review many things. These things that I am saying are not generally said by the left. They defend the State fanatically, which is equivalent to saying that the State is perfect. That is a lie, because we are not perfect.

To be a professional in the medical or engineering fields, you need to spend several years at university, but to be a senator or congressman, no one asks you for anything. We are a bunch of idiots, often. How do we allow this?

BBC News Mundo - But the alternative would be to prevent the rise of people like you, who came to power without going to university...

Mujica - Of course! I'm talking about what I experienced.

But it's not about going to university; there has to be a measure of experience, to be proven, more or less.

BBC News Mundo - The question is who measures...

Mujica - I believe that democracy, institutionally, is in a bit of a crisis because the representative system cannot represent the complexities of today's society.

Because technological and scientific development is making the different sectors increasingly complex. And it is not possible to summarize them in a Parliament, in a government team.

There is a feeling all over the world, and in countries with representative democracies, of a devaluation of democracy. They cling to democracy, and do not focus on its weak points and how we can overcome them.

Democracy is the best system we have invented so far, but it is rubbish, because it legally promises us something that is far from being realized.

We are equal before the law, yes, but we are not equal before life: there are some who are more equal.

Despite all this, we need to defend democracy, because so far it is the best we have managed to achieve; as (Winston) Churchill said, "the best crap".

As a hypothesis, I see that in the future different governments will have to coexist in society, with a central government, which does not say what they should do, but prevents what they should not do.

Health issues will have one government, education issues will have another. Because people specialized in different sectors are needed, and it is not possible to summarize everything in a single organization.

At least, that is what the transnational giants, who are true management teams, indicate.

It's a hypothesis, I could be wrong.

We saw this in the pandemic.

We had the government and we had a team of experts to advise us. And in reality, these guys should have been in charge, not the government and us, because we didn't understand at all what was going on.

BBC News Mundo - What does it mean to you to be left-wing in today's world?

Mujica - It's simple, you see it in the history of Uruguay.

In the last 40 years of democracy, wages have not increased by more than 13% in the 25 years that conservative parties have governed. And in the 15 years that the Broad Front has governed, they have increased by 87%.

The difference is in the distribution. It is not radical, it is not a historical change, it is a change in distribution.

BBC News Mundo - You mentioned this on election day, and someone responded that the Front governed during a period of boom in raw materials that allowed a huge boost to the economy...

Mujica - Yes, that was true from 2005 to 2009, but then the European crisis broke out. Things started to change. However, wages increased.

BBC News Mundo - When we started this conversation, you said that you would have to be a believer. Did the illness you overcame make you look at religion in a different way?

Mujica - No, I will respect religions until I die. Because 60 to 65% of humanity believes in something, and who am I to ignore this reality?

My explanation: it's the love of life, we can't accept death and we have to invent a beyond and everything else. We need this to live.

I believe that life is the adventure of molecules, that there is nothing behind or ahead. Hell and heaven are what we are living.

But that's my way of thinking, not the majority's. And I have to respect the majority.

BBC News Mundo - Is it comforting to be by your life partner, Lucía,'s side at this stage?

Mujica - Oh, it's a prize. If it weren't for Lucía, I would be left with nothing.

BBC News World - Why?

Mujica - Because Lucía is much more than a companion. She took care of me, supported me and much more.

I'm a bit of an insufferable old man, and I know it. At best, I'm a bit irascible.

We are not equal, men and women, fortunately. We have a dependence on femininity.

And love in youth is one thing. But at my age, love is a sweet habit, it is the way to avoid loneliness.

I got an award because I'm almost 90 and she's about 80, and we're self-sufficient. And together. That's not common in today's world.

There are no domestic workers here, no Maria, no one. Here we are two elderly people who get by and live together.

But I am aware that I owe a large part of my life today to her. Because she is not a companion; she is a nurse, she is everything.

BBC News Mundo - What does this victory for Orsi, whom you promoted in his political career, mean?

Mujica - For me, personally, it's a prize. My last 40 years of activism are summed up in this. And it comes at the end, when I'm out of the competition.

It's a prize, if you like, a consolation prize, because it's coming to the end of the game. But still, a prize.

I've always thought that the best leader isn't the one who does the most; it's the one who leaves a group that surpasses him with an advantage.

I have spent my whole life trying to promote and give them opportunities, because I am aware that social and political causes are longer than our lives.

And the only way for them to have a certain validity is by assimilating new people to raise the old flags and readapt them to the circumstances in which they live.

BBC News Mundo - What are you going to do now? Have you thought about the role you will play in Orsi's government?

Mujica - No, my role is to give him some advice.

The other day, he came to chat, and I told him about some advice that Alejandro Atchugarry (late former senator and former minister of the Colorado Party), with whom we were very good friends, had given me.

He picks me up at a bowling alley and says, "Look, Pepe, now that you've become president, you're not going to sign any document that hasn't been reviewed by a good lawyer."

BBC News Mundo - Was that the advice? One might think it was something philosophical...

Mujica - No, no, it was very specific.

Because in the Presidency you have hundreds of papers to sign. Most of them are nonsense, but you don't have time to read them; you sign like an automaton.

They can put a banana peel on it for you to slip on.

And I also told him: "Consult and talk to everyone, but make sure they actually have votes, so that you don't get stuck in the leadership apparatus of people who don't even have the vote of a parrot. Since we are in a representative regime, listen to the people who actually have votes, whether they are friends or opponents."

BBC News Mundo - You spoke about the "prize" for the vote in Uruguay. But at an international level you have received many recognitions. What would you say is your legacy, and how do you think you will go down in history?

Mujica - First, there is no such thing as history. What exists is a bit of anecdote. Because ants have lived much longer than human beings, and they will continue to live when humans are no longer alive.

Therefore, history is relative. It is a human convention, but in the face of the infinite play of nature, it is nothing.

Secondly, my legacy is nothing but the comrades who continue to fight.

Then I know that I am a bit of a crazy old man, because philosophically I am a stoic due to my way of life and the values ​​that I defend. And that does not fit in today's world, I am aware of that.

Some people say to me, "You're a Marxist." No, Stoicism is older than Christianity, give it a rest. It's an ancient school of philosophy, a conception of life. That's why I live soberly.

And since I was president, they come here, see this little house and admire me. But they don't follow me at all.

BBC News Mundo - They don't follow their habits...

Mujica - Of course not. So, they admire me. They say: 'He is coherent'.

But I'm not doing this for the world; I'm doing it for myself. It's my way of defending freedom. I don't want to waste time paying installments.

So, all of this will be handled by the political organization I belong to. When I die, everything remains, and they can do whatever they want. Bye, it's over.

BBC News Mundo - Looking back, is there anything important you would have liked to have done differently?

Mujica - Oh, yes, a lot of things.

It is inconceivable that there are people in Uruguay who have difficulty eating. And I am also responsible for this. I could and should have done more.

It's a food producing country, we're just a handful of people, it doesn't make sense.

Yes, there would be things to be done.